Dennis Prager: Nutty Conservative?

Originally posted by ChemBot
[B]That’s pretty much my point exactly Trot.

True enough, but I’m not just talking about emergency medical care. I mean, what if I go into the emergency room after an accident (they treat first and then ask for payment in those situations, so you can get treated even without insurance) and they find I have a brain tumor. This brain tumor is in the beginning stages and could possible be removed or treated now, but since it’s not life threatening now, it’s just left to grow. So I go on living after being stitched up, but now I have a brain tumor that won’t be treated untill I go back to the emergency room for brain hemoraging. Personally, I’d rather not wait that long. I mean, I could get a job and pay for health insurance myself and then get it treated, except that I’m in the middle of going to college so I don’t have the skills or the time to get a job that pays well enough to afford me rent, food, car insurance, gas, utilities, and health insurance on top of that. Especially not in California, the state I call home. It’s nearly impossible to find even a low paying job since the job market arround here is sparce and the competition is fierce. In my situation I’d be lucky to get treatment before my brain implodes. [/B]

Yes, but look at countries that have “free” health care. In these countries there is a very good chance that your brain tumor, found early, would put you on a waiting list for surgery. These lists are often so long that many individuals on them face their tumors becoming untreatable by the time they reach the top of the list.

It isn’t as if the choice for the surgeons whose job it is to perform these surgeries is “work on ChemBot’s brain tumor” or “golf.” The choice is “work on person A’s tumor” or “work on person B’s tumor.” In other words, someone is always going to be denied care. In the case of “free” government provided health care, the people denied are usually the more serious cases because the wait is too long for them to survive (and, since this type of system invariably depresses supply, the number of people denied care actually goes up rather than down).

But if the system you are in requires you to be able to pay for the care you’re about to get, and you are unable to pay for it, you are no better off than Person Q on the list of People Who Need Surgery.

So there’s flaws in one, and flaws in the other.

What’s the solution?

Well, I think that the US and Canadian government should legalize soft drugs and put ludicrous taxes on them, and use the income to raise the salaries of the suddenly government-employed doctors, thus creating more doctors who work in the socialistic system, and thus better health care for all.

Originally posted by Oblivion
Well, I think that the US and Canadian government should legalize soft drugs and put ludicrous taxes on them, and use the income to raise the salaries of the suddenly government-employed doctors, thus creating more doctors who work in the socialistic system, and thus better health care for all.

Except that an even more reasonable solution would be to not have the state employing doctors at all while at the same time no longer artificially depressing the number of doctors that can enter the market. Sure their salaries would go down, but you’re all liberals and surely think they make too much money anyway - and there’d be more doctors to treat non-emergency illnesses.

Oh, also, the increase in supply would depress prices and make medical care cheaper, so voila.

Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
I know, I know, you think it’s a service. I think it’s a right.

I’m not sure this even works. It seems totally abhorrent to me that there could exist a right that would force someone else to do something for you. The right to free speech doesn’t mean anyone has to listen and the right to bear arms doesn’t mean anyone has to buy guns for you. But implicit in a right to medical treatment is that someone has to provide it for you, whether they want to or not. That seems very unlike a right to me.

Well, whatever.

I’m not saying they should be forced at gunpoint to help someone, but I think it should be a right that nobody should get sick and die because he or she wasn’t able to afford basic medical treatment.

Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
[B]Well, whatever.

I’m not saying they should be forced at gunpoint to help someone, but I think it should be a right that nobody should get sick and die because he or she wasn’t able to afford basic medical treatment. [/B]

A couple things:

  1. We’ve already covered why people (for the most part) aren’t going to die: because doctors aren’t allowed to refuse emergency treatment.

  2. In other cases (like organ waiting lists or whatever), what if a doctor refuses to treat someone because they can’t pay? Then the doctor is fined, sent to prison, whatever the punishment that goes along with denying someone their “right” to health. If the doctor refuses to go along with that punishment willingly, then guns will get involved. It seems to me that, fundamentally at least, doctors would be forced at gunpoint to help other people in this scenario.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
[B]A couple things:

  1. We’ve already covered why people (for the most part) aren’t going to die: because doctors aren’t allowed to refuse emergency treatment.[/B]

And we’ve also covered the fact that it’s not emergency situations that will kill the most poor people, it’s the slow (often times painful) dying that will kill most people that can’t afford health insurance. And it’s not just the not being treated by a doctor that will kill, it’s the inability of the poor to get effective (and costly) drugs that could keep them alive and often times cure the problem. They are just allowed to get worse because it’s not an emergency and therefore the doctors are not allowed to help.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
2) In other cases (like organ waiting lists or whatever), what if a doctor refuses to treat someone because they can’t pay? Then the doctor is fined, sent to prison, whatever the punishment that goes along with denying someone their “right” to health. If the doctor refuses to go along with that punishment willingly, then guns will get involved. It seems to me that, fundamentally at least, doctors would be forced at gunpoint to help other people in this scenario.

That’s really weak.

Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
That’s really weak.

Spoken like a true liberal. Apparently, if the gun isn’t pointed directly at the doctor’s head, the doctor’s not being coerced. THAT seems like the weaker argument to me.

Originally posted by ChemBot
And we’ve also covered the fact that it’s not emergency situations that will kill the most poor people, it’s the slow (often times painful) dying that will kill most people that can’t afford health insurance. And it’s not just the not being treated by a doctor that will kill, it’s the inability of the poor to get effective (and costly) drugs that could keep them alive and often times cure the problem.

None of that establishes medical care as a right. Knee-jerk liberal sympathy arguments don’t make rights, no matter how much crying either of us does.

Look, I don’t even believe there’s a good foundation for forcing doctors to care for anyone, no matter how extreme the need. Doctors are providers of services - they aren’t slaves, and the Thirteenth Amendment pretty much guarantees they aren’t going to be. Forcing people to provide a service against their will (and, despite Trot’s objections about how long it takes before the trigger is pulled, it is force) is pretty appalling. If you can’t justify forcing people to landscape your yard, you are going to have to go through some logic pretzels to justify forcing doctors to care for others.

That said, while I don’t necessarily approve of the law against denying care in emergency cases, it’s almost certainly not unconstitutional (immoral maybe), so it stands. But the claim that there is a RIGHT to medical care is simply not constitutionally founded - not to mention how ethically questionable it is.

They are just allowed to get worse because it’s not an emergency and therefore the doctors are not allowed to help.

Not ALLOWED to help? In any case in which that is true, I suspect it’s because the owners of the hospital don’t choose to allow their facilities to be used. Gee, it’s rough when people are allowed to decide how their own property is used… though I suspect you’d probably object to me using YOUR things when you’ve explicitly told me not to.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
None of that establishes medical care as a right. Knee-jerk liberal sympathy arguments don’t make rights, no matter how much crying either of us does.

First off, cut the liberal crap. Seems you can’t post one reply without mentioning how something is a “typical liberal arguemnt” or liberal something or other like liberal is a derogatory term. You probably can’t read a cook book without decrying it as damned leftist propaganda (think “sprinkle flour liberally”). Makes your opinions look biased, though that’s also apparent by the actual content of your opinions. Secondly, I don’t know if I think medical care for all should be a right per se, but shouldn’t there be some sort of program for protecting students and those under the poverty line (most students might as well be under the poverty line)? We know that these people are unable to pay for medical insurance, so shouldn’t we few at least be covered?

Look, I don’t even believe there’s a good foundation for forcing doctors to care for anyone, no matter how extreme the need. Doctors are providers of services - they aren’t slaves, and the Thirteenth Amendment pretty much guarantees they aren’t going to be. Forcing people to provide a service against their will (and, despite Trot’s objections about how long it takes before the trigger is pulled, it is force) is pretty appalling. If you can’t justify forcing people to landscape your yard, you are going to have to go through some logic pretzels to justify forcing doctors to care for others.

Umm, I really don’t think that is a fair comparison to make. The doctors would get paid through the hostpital like they always do, except it would be the goverment that would be paying the hospitals, instead of your insurance company. If the doctor does not want to help somone, the hospital will fire them no matter who is paying the hospital’s bills.

Not ALLOWED to help? In any case in which that is true, I suspect it’s because the owners of the hospital don’t choose to allow their facilities to be used. Gee, it’s rough when people are allowed to decide how their own property is used… though I suspect you’d probably object to me using YOUR things when you’ve explicitly told me not to.

It’s against hospital policy to help those without means of paying the bills. So unless the doctors go to people’s houes and help them, people won’t get helped. The advantage of the hospital is that it has much better equipment and medicine for treating patients than a typical home does. That’s why even if a doctor wants to help somome in need, they will be able to do very little unless that person has health insurance. And as for using my stuff, if you’re going to be saving somone’s life, you can go ahead and use my mini-fridge, old laptop, and microwave all you like.

Originally posted by ChemBot
First off, cut the liberal crap.

I will if you will.

Seems you can’t post one reply without mentioning how something is a “typical liberal arguemnt” or liberal something or other like liberal is a derogatory term.

Actually, I’ve had a number of posts in which I didn’t even use the word “liberal.” And economics makes liberal a derogatory term - that’s hardly my fault.

Makes your opinions look biased, though that’s also apparent by the actual content of your opinions.

Yes, as opposed to unbiased opinions. What exactly do those look like, anyway? Opinions that don’t reference opinion must be really bizarre.

Secondly, I don’t know if I think medical care for all should be a right per se, but shouldn’t there be some sort of program for protecting students and those under the poverty line (most students might as well be under the poverty line)? We know that these people are unable to pay for medical insurance, so shouldn’t we few at least be covered?

You did CHOOSE to be a student, right? Assuming you’re beyond high school, you are no longer under any sort of compulsory education law, so it seems to me that this is something you should have taken into account before making your decision, isn’t it? Also, I’m not sure where you go to school, but my medical costs are fairly well covered by my university (I’ll assume my tuition aids in covering all that), which is really a bonus in deciding to go to that university.

Umm, I really don’t think that is a fair comparison to make. The doctors would get paid through the hostpital like they always do, except it would be the goverment that would be paying the hospitals, instead of your insurance company. If the doctor does not want to help somone, the hospital will fire them no matter who is paying the hospital’s bills.

Then aren’t we just going to come back around to the same old economic arguments against this? We were moving down a moral/rights track because the economic one wasn’t going anywhere. We’ve pretty well established that, when the government foots the bill, all sorts of mishaps occur.

It’s against hospital policy to help those without means of paying the bills. So unless the doctors go to people’s houses and help them, people won’t get helped. The advantage of the hospital is that it has much better equipment and medicine for treating patients than a typical home does. That’s why even if a doctor wants to help somome in need, they will be able to do very little unless that person has health insurance. And as for using my stuff, if you’re going to be saving somone’s life, you can go ahead and use my mini-fridge, old laptop, and microwave all you like.

My point was that you wouldn’t want me using your things without your permission, which I think is clear in that you just offered permission - indicating that you think such a thing is necessary. So I’m not sure why you would object to the owners of a hospital having the right to choose when their facilities are to be used. You may not like the choices they make, but that’s not the same thing as respecting their right to their property.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
I will if you will.

Ok, I will stop as well (when did I start?)

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Actually, I’ve had a number of posts in which I didn’t even use the word “liberal.” And economics makes liberal a derogatory term - that’s hardly my fault.

Exaggeration and it’s your fault that you use the term in such a way. Just because a derrogatory term exists for black people doesn’t mean you have to use it.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Yes, as opposed to unbiased opinions. What exactly do those look like, anyway? Opinions that don’t reference opinion must be really bizarre.

You could at least try being impartial… I dunno, too crazy an idea?

Originally posted by LPFabulous
You did CHOOSE to be a student, right? Assuming you’re beyond high school, you are no longer under any sort of compulsory education law, so it seems to me that this is something you should have taken into account before making your decision, isn’t it? Also, I’m not sure where you go to school, but my medical costs are fairly well covered by my university (I’ll assume my tuition aids in covering all that), which is really a bonus in deciding to go to that university.

Yes, I CHOOSE to be a student. However, I can either get a better education or I can choose to flip burgers at McDonalds for the rest of my life, keeping me below the poverty line or just barely above it. What exactly is your point? And yes, I go to a local community college. It’s all I can afford. Would I like to go to a University that has health care packages for free? Hell yes. Can I afford to? Hell no. Again, what is your point? Telling me that you have luxuries that I don’t doesn’t really mean much to me.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
My point…

Ahh, finally.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
…was that you wouldn’t want me using your things without your permission, which I think is clear in that you just offered permission - indicating that you think such a thing is necessary. So I’m not sure why you would object to the owners of a hospital having the right to choose when their facilities are to be used. You may not like the choices they make, but that’s not the same thing as respecting their right to their property.

What? Hey… I was expecting a better point than that, but let’s work with what we got. I’m NOT (read: NOT) objecting to how these people run their hospitals. They are in charge and can do what they like. I’m upset with the fact that there is no safety net for those that cannot afford to pay for the privilage that those with health insurance posess. There needs to be a solution, be it government health care programs for the poor, more non-profit groups that can provide health care, or quack doctors doing community service for medical mishaps. There just needs to be something more than there is now.

Originally posted by ChemBot
Ok, I will stop as well (when did I start?)

It was a joke. You said “cut the liberal crap” - I was implying that you should stop saying liberal things… joke, see?

Exaggeration and it’s your fault that you use the term in such a way. Just because a derrogatory term exists for black people doesn’t mean you have to use it.

The difference is that black people don’t deserve to be called by that name. Liberals, on the other hand, choose to continue believing a lot of foolish things in the face of overwhelming economic evidence that they’re just crazy.

You could at least try being impartial… I dunno, too crazy an idea?

I think we’ve already covered what I think of impartiality in another thread, but I’ll sum up: no such thing.

Yes, I CHOOSE to be a student. However, I can either get a better education or I can choose to flip burgers at McDonalds for the rest of my life, keeping me below the poverty line or just barely above it.

I sincerely hope you don’t believe these are your only two options. Neither of my parents are college-educated and we live at least comfortably above the poverty line. And this isn’t just a generational thing. I know several people around my own age who aren’t college-educated and do just fine.

And yes, I go to a local community college. It’s all I can afford. Would I like to go to a University that has health care packages for free? Hell yes. Can I afford to? Hell no. Again, what is your point? Telling me that you have luxuries that I don’t doesn’t really mean much to me.

Well, at least you’ve paid some attention to the economics of your situation. But I can’t afford to go to school where I go either. I’m aware that I have to pay for my education through loans that I’ll be paying off for a long time. But after carefully weighing the alternatives, I decided this was the best thing for me. Just because I can’t afford school doesn’t mean I think the state should pay my student loans. That’s ludicrous.

By the way, just a sidenote. I’m very much pro-community colleges. They are the last educational institutions in the country that still tend to grade their students based on performance.

What? Hey… I was expecting a better point than that, but let’s work with what we got.

Sorry, it was late. I hope this time I’m doing better.

I’m NOT (read: NOT) objecting to how these people run their hospitals. They are in charge and can do what they like. I’m upset with the fact that there is no safety net for those that cannot afford to pay for the privilage that those with health insurance posess. There needs to be a solution, be it government health care programs for the poor, more non-profit groups that can provide health care, or quack doctors doing community service for medical mishaps. There just needs to be something more than there is now.

Ohhhhh… well, now I see where we’re going, and I don’t even think we have to disagree. I am in full (read, full) agreement that there should be a safety net for those people who can’t afford to pay for health care. Where we may have a problem is if you want the state to do it, in that I want this safety net to be provided willingly instead of at gunpoint.

Anyway, call me a wacky libertarian, but I think the state has caused most of the problems in the health care industry, and trusting them to clean up is the worst idea ever. First, they artificially limit the number of people who can be doctors, making sure supply is kept low and prices high. Then they tax the income of just about everyone, making damn sure no one can afford these high prices. In addition, small business taxes and the like ensure that it’s very difficult for doctors to act independently of large organizations, which means more bureaucratic red tape and less autonomy on the part of physicians. I’d like to see how the industry would do if all of this was cut away. After all, in the earlier parts of last century, there was no health care crisis. It has to have come from somewhere.

Oh, also, because my stepmother is a nurse, she’d kill me if I didn’t do a little more ranting. There are tons of jobs that nurses are capable of doing, but silly regulations make sure that doctors have to do them instead. As we all know, doctors make more money than nurses, so paying them to do something nurses are fully competent to do keeps prices artificially high too.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
It was a joke. You said “cut the liberal crap” - I was implying that you should stop saying liberal things… joke, see?

Oh, good one…

Originally posted by LPFabulous
The difference is that black people don’t deserve to be called by that name. Liberals, on the other hand, choose to continue believing a lot of foolish things in the face of overwhelming economic evidence that they’re just crazy.

I’m sure there’s plenty of racist southerners that would disagree with your comment on whether or not black people deserve to be called by that name. Also, just because I disagree with alot of conservative policies doesn’t mean I automatically throw arround terms like right-winger, frothing convervative, or even nutty conservative. Stuff like that used in a derogatory way doesn’t add any points to your argument, it only makes you look bad.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
I think we’ve already covered what I think of impartiality in another thread, but I’ll sum up: no such thing.

Oh it’s entirely possible, just more difficult since you need to think about what you’re going to say before you say it. You couldn’t very well sling back an argument at those nutty left-wing hippies right back if you have to think out your argument first, now could you?

Originally posted by LPFabulous
I sincerely hope you don’t believe these are your only two options. Neither of my parents are college-educated and we live at least comfortably above the poverty line. And this isn’t just a generational thing. I know several people around my own age who aren’t college-educated and do just fine.

Well gee, if you know a guy that’s doing “just fine”, well that sure convinces me. Come now, how old are you? You can’t be that much older than me, in which case “just fine” won’t cut it when you decide you want to buy a house in California and raise a family. The cost of living is high and most jobs that pay well require a college education. Sure, I could do well selling Amway and working a part-time job at a book store, but pretty much any career has a college education as a minimum requirement. Also, your stepmother went to medical school to become a nurse. Tell her she could have done just fine without medical school and see what kind of reaction she gives you.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Well, at least you’ve paid some attention to the economics of your situation. But I can’t afford to go to school where I go either. I’m aware that I have to pay for my education through loans that I’ll be paying off for a long time. But after carefully weighing the alternatives, I decided this was the best thing for me. Just because I can’t afford school doesn’t mean I think the state should pay my student loans. That’s ludicrous.

The state does pay for college for alot of people already. They’re called scolarships. I didn’t get one. Now I also could have gotten student loans like you and gotten myself into lots and lots of debt, but I sure don’t fancy the idea of having such debt. That’s why I don’t have any credit cards, because I know I’d just buy nice things that I can’t afford and bury myself with debt. To me, debt is bad. I’d rather not owe anyone anything if I can help it. Maybe when I get my GE out of the way I’ll transfer to a University, get student loans, and graduate as soon as I can. Untill I do that though, I better watch out for cars and SARS cuz I’m not covered for nothin’.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
By the way, just a sidenote. I’m very much pro-community colleges. They are the last educational institutions in the country that still tend to grade their students based on performance.

Glad to hear it.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Sorry, it was late. I hope this time I’m doing better.

A bit better, yes. Keep working on it though.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Ohhhhh… well, now I see where we’re going, and I don’t even think we have to disagree. I am in full (read, full) agreement that there should be a safety net for those people who can’t afford to pay for health care. Where we may have a problem is if you want the state to do it, in that I want this safety net to be provided willingly instead of at gunpoint.

Where are you getting thise gunpoint analogy from? That’s just, well, wacky.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Anyway, call me a wacky libertarian…

Done and done.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
…but I think the state has caused most of the problems in the health care industry, and trusting them to clean up is the worst idea ever. First, they artificially limit the number of people who can be doctors, making sure supply is kept low and prices high. Then they tax the income of just about everyone, making damn sure no one can afford these high prices. In addition, small business taxes and the like ensure that it’s very difficult for doctors to act independently of large organizations, which means more bureaucratic red tape and less autonomy on the part of physicians. I’d like to see how the industry would do if all of this was cut away. After all, in the earlier parts of last century, there was no health care crisis. It has to have come from somewhere.

In the earlier parts of last centery health care was minimal at best, even for those who could pay for it. But you’re right, there was little regulation or competition since there was little innovation in the medical industry. When it improved and thus became more complicated, federal regulation became necessary to prevent greedy people from trying to scam patients. I mean, look at the California power system for how self regulation can go wrong. It was all fine and good with government regulation, then they decided self regulation was better. $9 billion later, we’re still trying to sue the power companies for shutting off power plants to artificially inflates prices when demand was high. While I agree that alot of policies in medical regulation are not good for patients, government policies can change for the better if enough people want them to. Of course Republicans tend to lean towards business over consumer when it comes time to make such laws, so maybe liberals aren’t so bad?

Originally posted by ChemBot
I’m sure there’s plenty of racist southerners that would disagree with your comment on whether or not black people deserve to be called by that name.

I’m glad that they’re racist southerners rather than just racists… who’s being derogatory now?

Also, just because I disagree with alot of conservative policies doesn’t mean I automatically throw arround terms like right-winger, frothing convervative, or even nutty conservative. Stuff like that used in a derogatory way doesn’t add any points to your argument, it only makes you look bad.

Dude, it isn’t just because I disagree with them because I feel like it. It’s that I don’t see any good reason to think that people who believe some of these things are sane or rational.

Oh it’s entirely possible, just more difficult since you need to think about what you’re going to say before you say it. You couldn’t very well sling back an argument at those nutty left-wing hippies right back if you have to think out your argument first, now could you?

Way to argue for your contention… By the way, I still think you’re wrong. Being impartial/objective would require you not to be a person, not to have desires, emotions, reactions, or an environment. When you can somehow get outside of everything that makes you who you are, then you can talk to me about impartiality.

Well gee, if you know a guy that’s doing “just fine”, well that sure convinces me. Come now, how old are you? You can’t be that much older than me, in which case “just fine” won’t cut it when you decide you want to buy a house in California and raise a family. The cost of living is high and most jobs that pay well require a college education. Sure, I could do well selling Amway and working a part-time job at a book store, but pretty much any career has a college education as a minimum requirement.

When I say “just fine,” I don’t mean just surviving. My cousin and her new husband (neither college-educated) just bought a house. They have good jobs and enough money to be happy. If the cost of living is too high in California, then move.

Also, your stepmother went to medical school to become a nurse. Tell her she could have done just fine without medical school and see what kind of reaction she gives you.

First of all, no she didn’t. Nurses don’t go to med school - they go to nursing school. It’s different. Second, I wasn’t counting her as one of my parents because I don’t live with her. My mother and stepfather are not college-educated, and I have a house and cats and dogs and food and videogames and satellite TV and all those things a boy could want.

The state does pay for college for alot of people already.

First, not me. Second, still ludicrous.

They’re called scolarships.

Usually, they’re called “grants” and are based on the fact that you don’t have any money, which is the ludicrous part. Though they’re justifiable in the sense that I’m fully prepared to allow (morally) people to accept an amount up to the amount they (or their parents) pay in income taxes. They’re owed that much.

Now I also could have gotten student loans like you and gotten myself into lots and lots of debt, but I sure don’t fancy the idea of having such debt. That’s why I don’t have any credit cards, because I know I’d just buy nice things that I can’t afford and bury myself with debt. To me, debt is bad. I’d rather not owe anyone anything if I can help it. Maybe when I get my GE out of the way I’ll transfer to a University, get student loans, and graduate as soon as I can. Untill I do that though, I better watch out for cars and SARS cuz I’m not covered for nothin’.

Again, all of this looks like a choice and you still haven’t convinced me that the state needs to bail you out of a choice you made all by yourself.

Where are you getting thise gunpoint analogy from? That’s just, well, wacky.

The state has guns, which it uses to enforce its laws.

In the earlier parts of last centery health care was minimal at best, even for those who could pay for it. But you’re right, there was little regulation or competition since there was little innovation in the medical industry. When it improved and thus became more complicated, federal regulation became necessary to prevent greedy people from trying to scam patients.

I’m glad we can just state that federal regulation became necessary without really looking at the alternatives… which I’d like to do seeing as how federal regulation has so totally fucked the system up.

I mean, look at the California power system for how self regulation can go wrong. It was all fine and good with government regulation, then they decided self regulation was better. $9 billion later, we’re still trying to sue the power companies for shutting off power plants to artificially inflates prices when demand was high.

This is misguided, though I’m not sure I can explain why. T told me all about it once (something to do with deregulating in CA but not the suppliers and bottlenecks and all that) - hopefully he’ll come through here and clear this up.

While I agree that a lot of policies in medical regulation are not good for patients, government policies can change for the better if enough people want them to.

Given democracy, I agree… but I’m not sure why you feel the need to try to convince me of that.

Of course Republicans tend to lean towards business over consumer when it comes time to make such laws, so maybe liberals aren’t so bad?

Actually, Republicans just don’t tend to take such a poor view of consumers as Democrats (I’m using these party designations sweepingly and unfairly) do. For the most part, the idea of Democratic regulation implicitly seems to involve the notion that consumers are either too stupid or too lazy to make reasonable choices on their own. In many cases, I’d even go so far as to say it’s moral - a lot of “liberals” don’t seem to think that people should be held responsible for their decisions - hence, abortion. I think (because this is my point of view) that Republicans tend to assume that consumers aren’t just a bunch of ninnies who need a benevolent dictator keeping them in line. The reason they tend to favor businesses (though what I think is more accurate is that they just oppose special privileges for consumers - similar to the way their opposition to things like affirmative action is entirely negative) is that they trust the market to make things okay, which it usually does.

As to the California power dispute:

The problems here are myriad, and although they all hinge on regulation they cannot all be rightly called the government’s “fault.” The state of California made a rather foolish choice when they decided to deregulate, although realistically they may not have had a choice.

Due to environmental concerns California, despite a huge amount of population growth and an even larger increase in electricity demand, has failed to allow for the construction of a new power plant in something like two decades. Actually, I think that it may be more. In any case, the state must purchase much of its power from plants and energy producers that exist out of state. So, in a sense, power has been deregulated for a long time in California, because the power itself was purchased from energy companies that operate in other states.

When the state decided to deregulate their distribution network, they (for reasons that are explainable if foolish) decided to maintain a set price for electricity. In other words, the companies that own and operate power lines were given a set price which they were legally bound to charge for electricity. The producers of this electricity, on the other hand, were not bound by price controls. The problems in California arose when these producers raised prices (note that the producers accused of shutting down plants had these plants outside of the state, and were therefore not bound by California law at any point; they could raise prices at will even before deregulation), and when the citizens of California began demanding dramatically more electricity. What occurred was a dramatic breakdown of a market. Demand could be any amount, because prices were fixed (at a low amount). Thus, individuals and companies began demanding more and more electricity and saw no corresponding increase in price. At the same time, distributors were being forced to pay more and more for electricity, both because suppliers may have been limiting supply and for the more basic reason that, if the citizens of California demanded more electricity, these distribution companies had to demand an equal amount from the companies that owned the plants. Increased demand here certainly would lead to higher prices.

So, distribution companies could not afford to buy the electricity that they were then supposed to sell to California consumers.

Who’s to blame? There are two obvious parties. First, these distribution companies were foolish to accept these terms of sale. It was a poor investment on their part, and they failed because of it. However, some blame must also fall to the government for allowing this to go through. They offered these terms or nothing and, surprise surprise, the terms were accepted rather than not be in business. They offered a deregulation scheme that was doomed to fail, and they deserve some blame for that as well.

In the end you can blame whichever party you prefer; the fact will remain that this attempt at deregulation was totally dishonest, and that it was doomed by simple economics to fail. Of course consumer demand would rise dispropotionately in the presence of fixed prices; that’s how demand works. And of course prices would rise with rising demand. When the market is disconnected as it was in California, failures are bound to occur.

Thanks