I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, arguments are fun FUN FUN!
I’m glad you brought this up because dear God does Canada’s medical system blow. I think the single greatest vindication of capitalism in the face of socialism is the droves of people who flee from Canada for medical services in the United States. And yes, flee is the appropriate verb.
That’s because our best doctors all leave for the States to charge ludicrousy much for precision surgery. If they could not do so, we’d probably have a much better health care. And I prefer this one to one where the poor are screwed, [joke]as seen in the movie John Q.[/joke]
Originally posted by Oblivion
That’s because our best doctors all leave for the States to charge ludicrousy much for precision surgery. If they could not do so, we’d probably have a much better health care. And I prefer this one to one where the poor are screwed, [joke]as seen in the movie John Q.[/joke]
Yeah, doctors have a funny way of demonstrating that they aren’t the property of the state.
Originally posted by Oblivion
That’s because our best doctors all leave for the States to charge ludicrousy much for precision surgery. If they could not do so, we’d probably have a much better health care.
What is much more likely is that many would simply not become doctors in the first place. Intelligent people can make “ludicrous” money in ways other than surgery.
Further, you have ignored another large problem with the Canadian surgical system, excessive demand. Obviously, if people can get free surgery, they are going to demand surgery more often than would otherwise be the case. This ties up many surgeons doing work that isn’t necessary instead of, for instance, treating cancer.
Even if your best doctors did not leave (and trust me, it isn’t that large a problem) you would still suffer from this excess demand, and health care would still be scarce. Make no mistake, people don’t come to the U.S. strictly because the health care is better. They come because they can get high quality health care in the U.S., while they often cannot get care at all in Canada.
I regularly am admitted in hospitals ensuing foolish attempts at fights, and never encountered any problems. Therefore, your point about surgery being problematic is validated. But, again, I point at the fact that our very best doctors all leave for the states. Also, our government is notoriously bad at distributing money to the various services they control (education, road maintenance, hospital). Foolishness.
Originally posted by the doctor is in
Even if your best doctors did not leave (and trust me, it isn’t that large a problem) you would still suffer from this excess demand, and health care would still be scarce. Make no mistake, people don’t come to the U.S. strictly because the health care is better. They come because they can get high quality health care in the U.S., while they often cannot get care at all in Canada.
That is a big problem with Canadian health care. It’s kinda scary, as 99% of my family lives up there, and 65% of that is over 60, so they end up really low on the list of aggressive medical care.
Still, when I talk to my cousins, they don’t seem to mind for sprains, and other sporting type injuries that don’t cost them shit. Here, I sprained my elbow and was out almost 600 bucks. There, I would have paid the cost of some tylenol.
And in Holland, everything works, but nobody lives in Holland, so no biggy.
I’m not even necessarily for socialist medicine, I just think that poor people should have free or extremely cheap insurance that actually works. And I don’t mean out on the street poor, I mean lower class working folk…
You are right, friend. I mean, Trotsky.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
I’m not even necessarily for socialist medicine, I just think that poor people should have free or extremely cheap insurance that actually works. And I don’t mean out on the street poor, I mean lower class working folk…
Damn strait! I personally do not have health insurance at the moment because I cannot afford it. If I get hit by a car, I’m fucking screwed. Oh how I wish for free health insurance… and computer parts.
Originally posted by KBV
Absolutely. I am dedicated to all these things. It seems to me that sometimes rightists forget about that first and last ones (also note: IT SEEMS SO TO ME. So I’m not saying they ignore them, and I actually would believe that they do not, but I just don’t see how their ideas support the first and last items. How can you pursue happiness when you don’t have the money to maintain life? HOW CAN YOU HAVE PUDDING IF YOU DON’T EAT YOUR MEAT?)
While I agree with you (in part, we’ll get to that), I am a little uncomfortable with the notion that having the right to pursue your happiness in whatever way you see fit (so long as you respect those life and liberty ones) means that you are somehow entitled to money/wealth you didn’t earn/create. As far as I know, that pursuit of happiness one is intended to mean that you are free to pursue your own happiness within your means. There are obvious discomforts here for people whose means are rather limited, but I see a lot of the “solutions” as far more morally and economically destructive than the problems are in the first place.
My agreement with you is about the fact that a LOT of people on the right totally ignore the pursuit of happiness one. It seems to me that the right to pursue your happiness pretty much guarantees that homosexuality and drug use are a-okay as long as you don’t mess with other people in the process and conservatives really seem to be missing this.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
I’m not even necessarily for socialist medicine, I just think that poor people should have free or extremely cheap insurance that actually works. And I don’t mean out on the street poor, I mean lower class working folk…
I feel I should point out that no one in the United States goes untreated simply because they don’t have insurance. You’re right that it’s more expensive to treat minor injuries here than it is elsewhere, but that’s kind of the cost of actually being able to treat real life-and-death problems.
Originally posted by ChemBot
Damn strait! I personally do not have health insurance at the moment because I cannot afford it. If I get hit by a car, I’m fucking screwed. Oh how I wish for free health insurance… and computer parts.
Though I’ve already sort of addressed this in my response to Trot, you’re not in a situation that I would call “screwed.” The hospital is not going to turn you away because you don’t have insurance.
He’ll wait a long time, be given the cheapest minimal care, be charged way too much money, then kicked out. What if he needs a transplant? SCREWED.
Originally posted by LPFabulous
Though I’ve already sort of addressed this in my response to Trot, you’re not in a situation that I would call “screwed.” The hospital is not going to turn you away because you don’t have insurance.
Actually, they will. They have to. I guarantee you that at pretty much every hospital is this good 'ol US of A it’s against hostpital policy to treat patients with no means of paying you and that more than one doctor has been fired for doing just that. Now I’m sure that if I came in with a small flesh wound or a minor fracture, they might treat me against their better judgement and send me a huge bill I’ll never be able to pay. But if you need major surgery, you need to have some sort of insurance to cover the procedure’s costs or they won’t do it. Hospitals don’t get paid to help the poor, they get paid to help those with health insurance.
He won’t be given the same treatment for things like cancer and other progressive illnesses that someone with insurance would. Especially for things like transplants. Unless he can find a charitable service that will bear the cost of the transplant, he’s pretty much SOL. This is almost criminal…
It’s not like we’re talking about car service here.
Originally posted by ChemBot
Actually, they will. They have to. I guarantee you that at pretty much every hospital is this good 'ol US of A it’s against hostpital policy to treat patients with no means of paying you and that more than one doctor has been fired for doing just that. Now I’m sure that if I came in with a small flesh wound or a minor fracture, they might treat me against their better judgement and send me a huge bill I’ll never be able to pay. But if you need major surgery, you need to have some sort of insurance to cover the procedure’s costs or they won’t do it. Hospitals don’t get paid to help the poor, they get paid to help those with health insurance.
This is false. It is against the law for a hospital to turn away a patient in need of emergency care, regardless of ability to pay.
As to the huge bill . . . the U.S. has its own set of health care problems, some interesting, some boring, some just plain shocking (for instance, can anyone tell me what the largest portion of pretty much any given hospital’s personnel budget goes to? I’ll give you a hint: it isn’t doctors). The U.S. also suffers from excess demand and artificially depressed supply, which of course leads to higher costs.
Of course, the U.S. government is by far the largest “consumer” of health care, in the sense that it pays for the most. 40% of all health care costs, and more than half at most hospitals, is paid by the U.S. government. However, because the government simply pays for health care and does not actually control the system (not financially, at least) this creates further economic problems.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
[B]He won’t be given the same treatment for things like cancer and other progressive illnesses that someone with insurance would. Especially for things like transplants. Unless he can find a charitable service that will bear the cost of the transplant, he’s pretty much SOL. This is almost criminal…
It’s not like we’re talking about car service here. [/B]
You do understand that there are limits to the supply of health care, don’t you? Under any possible circumstances, only a set number of people will be able to recieve the “best” care possible, because the doctors that administer this care can’t work an infinite number of hours. And the reason transplants are so expensive is that they, in particular, are extremely limited. So, all that “free” transplants accomplishes is to make the waiting list for transplants that much longer. The same number of people will recieve transplants, and the same number of people will be “pretty much SOL.”
But that’s saying that just because you don’t have the money to pay for it, you don’t really warrant wasting time and energy on complicated surgery (maybe transplants were a bad idea, as the number of transplants ready to go directly relates to how many healthy people go speeding off Dead Man’s Curve). That’s a pretty macabre notion (although I kind of understand it, there are limits on surgeons and operating rooms and the like), but still, insurance that allows people to actually get sick and injured once in a while isn’t really a bad thing.
Like if ChemBot got a peptic ulcer. No insurance = drink Pepto like water, and wait until it becomes critical, then get care. Insurance = get it treated now.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
[B]But that’s saying that just because you don’t have the money to pay for it, you don’t really warrant wasting time and energy on complicated surgery (maybe transplants were a bad idea, as the number of transplants ready to go directly relates to how many healthy people go speeding off Dead Man’s Curve). That’s a pretty macabre notion (although I kind of understand it, there are limits on surgeons and operating rooms and the like), but still, insurance that allows people to actually get sick and injured once in a while isn’t really a bad thing.
Like if ChemBot got a peptic ulcer. No insurance = drink Pepto like water, and wait until it becomes critical, then get care. Insurance = get it treated now. [/B]
This all stems from the fact that you’re treating medical treatment as if it’s not a service. In any other case (most of which I think you’re comfortable with), people are aided in direct proportion to their ability to pay - see restaurants, landscaping, home-construction, etc. Why it should be different in the case of medical treatment is only clear in cases of emergency, and in those cases, it IS different. A lot of injuries/illnesses DO provide discomfort (as does a small house), but if these do not represent emergency cases, I’m not sure it’s clear that they ought to be handled in a manner different from any other service.
If your small house is getting smaller and smaller by the minute, until eventually it crushes you into a fine paste, I think you should try to repair it.
That’s no different than having a progressively worsening illness that needs to be treated early to prevent it from becoming critical to your health. If you’re unable to pay for medical care, you don’t just get an hilariously ludicrous parable about a house crushing you into catsup, you get death.
And I know you’re a libertarian, and we’re hitting the ol’ ideological divide here again, but I think that people who can’t afford insurance should be able to feel as healthy and injury free as rich people and people with good jobs and good insurance.
I speak from experience, having spent the last…6 months without coverage whatsoever. It’s not a nice feeling. If I had blown out my knee in that time span (or broken my leg, or something), and we’d have been unable to pay for treatment, what would have happened (I know, I know, you think it’s a service. I think it’s a right. But really, what would have happened)?
That’s pretty much my point exactly Trot.
originall posted by the doctor is in
This is false. It is against the law for a hospital to turn away a patient in need of emergency care, regardless of ability to pay.
True enough, but I’m not just talking about emergency medical care. I mean, what if I go into the emergency room after an accident (they treat first and then ask for payment in those situations, so you can get treated even without insurance) and they find I have a brain tumor. This brain tumor is in the beginning stages and could possible be removed or treated now, but since it’s not life threatening now, it’s just left to grow. So I go on living after being stitched up, but now I have a brain tumor that won’t be treated untill I go back to the emergency room for brain hemoraging. Personally, I’d rather not wait that long. I mean, I could get a job and pay for health insurance myself and then get it treated, except that I’m in the middle of going to college so I don’t have the skills or the time to get a job that pays well enough to afford me rent, food, car insurance, gas, utilities, and health insurance on top of that. Especially not in California, the state I call home. It’s nearly impossible to find even a low paying job since the job market arround here is sparce and the competition is fierce. In my situation I’d be lucky to get treatment before my brain implodes.