I really just feel like there hasn’t been a fight here for too long, so I’m going to go ahead and try to start one.
http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=11231&repository=0001_article
Thoughts?
Oh, and one more… decidedly off-topic for the thread I’ve started. But it’s by one of my long-time heroes in the world of grown-ups, Dennis Miller - who describes himself as a “lifelong Democrat.” Huh.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003453
You know something, the only “race” that really occurred to me during the war was our Army’s sprint to Baghdad.
The fool…
Islam, leftism-socialism, like in Europe, or Americanism.
… FOOLISHNESS. He’s forgetting Asian culture, and all their crazy traditions. Also, not all of Europe is leftist.
Ben Savage
Hahahahahahahahaha
He started kind of OK and got more nutty from there.
?"The largest Israeli demonstration in Israeli history was made against itself," Prager noted. “The two most hated countries are the ones with the most vociferous self-hatred,” he said.
Yeah, if you ignore that the self-critical part of Israel is not currently in power and the self-critical population in America is largely in what he calls “for all intents and purposes … Europe”. OOPS. I guess he went 100 miles south and entered Inconsistencyland.
I also like the way he equates America with the right. That is, of course, why our most recent election was one of the closest ever, yes? Because everyone was on the right?
Also, the Republican Jewish Coalition has combined religion and politics, which makes it not Jewish. Hey!
If half the States WAS owned by Europe… well, that’d be pretty funny. And if the North=Europe, what does that make jolly Canada?
Originally posted by Oblivion
And if the North=Europe, what does that make jolly Canada?
That’s not what he meant, I don’t think. I just think he meant “go to any arbitrary point in America outside of universities and the people there will not resemble the people in the universities very much”. Hey no kidding! What a pity for this guy universities are part of America. What a further pity that even if you go outside a university and land in a city, people are still going to generally be a little too far left of “insane fundamentalist” for this guy’s tastes.
I don’t think he’s even trying to understand just why other nations hate us, or Israel.
You know, when you commit massacres every 3 years against the Palestinian people, you tend to develop a little bit of hatred for your cause.
He’s also making arguments that don’t hold any water, like: Israel wants Palestinians to have a Palestine, but Palestinians don’t want Israeli’s to have an Israel. Well, I guess that’s true in some select cases, but from actually reading books, taking classes, and attending lectures about the issue, it seems that some Israeli’s want Palestinians to have Palestine, and others do not. It is also true that Palestinians want a Palestine, and gasp not all of them want to march the Jews right into the ocean.
But then we get into things like: does Israel even have a right to exist? I say it does, because I’m a romantic and Thedor Hertzl made a good argument. But the shocking thing is, his argument validates a Palestinian homeland if you simply change the word “Jew” to “Palestinian Arab”. So…yeah.
Originally posted by LPFabulous
Oh, and one more… decidedly off-topic for the thread I’ve started. But it’s by one of my long-time heroes in the world of grown-ups, Dennis Miller - who describes himself as a “lifelong Democrat.” Huh.
He explained his shift on Real Time with Bill Maher, saying that he got sick of democrats complaining all the time. This didn’t make any sense when he first said it, and it doesn’t make any sense now.
What I think, is that he’s feeding off the yokel factor. A majority of your “yokel” folk feel that we should teach those Iraqis a lesson, because, well, they’re Iraqi and they’re gonna keeeeeeel us and, hey, Saddam DID fly the plane into the WTC himself, so…we need retribution.
Dennis Miller needs money, and unpopular comedians don’t make money. So when he tells jokes, he tells jokes about how we need to bomb Iraq because, again, Saddam flew the plane into the WTC. Oh, and France is evil because they didn’t go along with us, THIS ONE TIME.
I don’t blame him. He’s got a buck to make.
Plus, he’s a funny guy. His old rants are classic, and I used to watch his show every week. But now he’s losing his funny luster. Yes, I’m a liberal. Yes, I disagreed with the war. Oh, so now I’m a cocksucking pussy Frenchman…great. It’s getting old.
This is also known as Jay Leno disease, but Jay Leno was never funny, so it doesn’t really matter…
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
This is also known as Jay Leno disease, but Jay Leno was never funny, so it doesn’t really matter…
TRUTH.
Originally posted by Oblivion
… FOOLISHNESS. He’s forgetting Asian culture, and all their crazy traditions. Also, not all of Europe is leftist.
I think he was aiming at the three ideologies that will become dominant in the near future. Asian culture, while it was all the rage in the eighties and early nineties, is dying along with their economies - or disappearing in the wake of Americanism. I more or less agree that he’s nailed the three major species of thought in the modern world.
Originally posted by KBV
That’s not what he meant, I don’t think. I just think he meant “go to any arbitrary point in America outside of universities and the people there will not resemble the people in the universities very much”. Hey no kidding! What a pity for this guy universities are part of America. What a further pity that even if you go outside a university and land in a city, people are still going to generally be a little too far left of “insane fundamentalist” for this guy’s tastes.
I think you know what his point was here. He’s a little extreme about it, but he’s right. Universities are WAAAAY to the left of mainstream American thought and are decidedly un-“diverse” about what they present or allow to go on. While it is true that most people in large cities will also be to the left of Prager, they won’t be as far left as those who work for, and in large part attend, major universities.
Originally posted by LPFabulous
I more or less agree that he’s nailed the three major species of thought in the modern world.
So… what about the other Americanism, the one that values humans?
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
I don’t think he’s even trying to understand just why other nations hate us, or Israel.
It seems to me that this is the right diagnosis. Prager, like a lot of sensible people, is too busy wondering why we should care that a lot of people hate us. Especially when it comes to these hard line Islamic nations, he (and I, really) want to know why we ought to listen to people who would get our attention by blowing our things up and killing our innocent civilians. The WTC was not a military target and opening a dialog with people who would destroy it in large part condones their action, which is entirely unacceptable.
You know, when you commit massacres every 3 years against the Palestinian people, you tend to develop a little bit of hatred for your cause.
This is largely true. Israel has, in large part, been unwilling to do its part to make peace. However, to rephrase my above point, people/groups like Arafat and Hamas don’t make this easy, especially on a government whose responsibility is the safety of its citizens.
He’s also making arguments that don’t hold any water, like: Israel wants Palestinians to have a Palestine, but Palestinians don’t want Israeli’s to have an Israel. Well, I guess that’s true in some select cases, but from actually reading books, taking classes, and attending lectures about the issue, it seems that some Israeli’s want Palestinians to have Palestine, and others do not. It is also true that Palestinians want a Palestine, and gasp not all of them want to march the Jews right into the ocean.
Yes, but his point seems generally fairly accurate. It’s my understanding that a large Palestinian state WAS offered… and refused. The Palestinian leadership, for many years, has made it abundantly clear that they do not want Israel to exist. On the other hand, the Israeli leadership, Sharon aside, as well as the leadership of a multitude of other states (our own included) are and have been calling for a Palestinian state.
But then we get into things like: does Israel even have a right to exist? I say it does, because I’m a romantic and Thedor Hertzl made a good argument. But the shocking thing is, his argument validates a Palestinian homeland if you simply change the word “Jew” to “Palestinian Arab”. So…yeah.
I’m not sure Prager would argue that a Palestinian state should not exist. If I’m wrong about that, you can point it out, but I think he generally would approve of a Palestinian state.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
“…Dennis Miller…”
I’m not sure any of that works. It might be true that he needs money - it’s in fact unfathomable that he wouldn’t need money. However, he’s not working for his money. DM doesn’t have a show any more and he isn’t really doing a whole lot except writing op-eds and making TV appearances. It doesn’t make much sense that he’s changed his stance only for money.
As I mentioned, I’ve been a long-time fan of his, and as long as I can remember, he’s never pulled punches or changed his opinion just because it would earn him quick cash. He’s ruthlessly honest, brutally intellectual, and generally doesn’t seem to care who likes him. Although he called himself a “lifelong Democrat,” I really only mentioned that to poke fun. In reality, he’s always been a little toward the pseudo-libertarian center occupied by the average American. And what I think is that the left has, in the face of losses, gotten a little shrill, a little whiny, and a lot counterproductive - and he seems to be in full understanding that the Democratic Party, rather than get together and present a coherent message a la the so-called “neoconservatives,” has fractured into its moderates (Lieberman) and its rabid liberals (Dean), who can’t get along precisely because they don’t agree on much of anything.
Originally posted by KBV
So… what about the other Americanism, the one that values humans?
Are you trying to be cute here, or is this a point? I bet a lot of people, especially a lot of pro-life-type Christians, would take issue at you saying that their brand of “Americanism,” which I’ll remind you is fairly dominant in the United States, doesn’t value humans.
Originally posted by LPFabulous
[B]This is largely true. Israel has, in large part, been unwilling to do its part to make peace. However, to rephrase my above point, people/groups like Arafat and Hamas don’t make this easy, especially on a government whose responsibility is the safety of its citizens.
First of all, the dangerous part of Hamas is 3% of its total budget, the other large portion of it’s funding goes to spreading Islamic charity to the Palestinian refugees. I’m not condoning the actions of Hamas, but it’s no worse than the early Jewish terrorist organizations that fought and died to get Britain out of the region (and protect Jewish refugees). The other Palestinian terrorist groups like Islamic Jihad and the Martyr’s Brigade are so small, it’s laughable.
Yes, but his point seems generally fairly accurate. It’s my understanding that a large Palestinian state WAS offered… and refused. The Palestinian leadership, for many years, has made it abundantly clear that they do not want Israel to exist. On the other hand, the Israeli leadership, Sharon aside, as well as the leadership of a multitude of other states (our own included) are and have been calling for a Palestinian state.
You’re right, it was. But it didn’t give the Palestinians control of their own water, or viable connecting strips, nor did it address the people forever stuck in the pitiful Gaza strip. The post-Oslo offerings were meager, to say the least, and no Palestinian nationalist would have ever accepted them.
Why can’t Israel give back the entirety of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip like every UN resolution has asked them to do for the past 36 years? It’s not theirs, they grabbed it illegally in a war of aggression, and they’ve been putting a strangle hold on the native people since 1948.
First of all, I want to go on record as not wanting to disagree with you much because I generally think Israel’s policies are bad news and a Palestinian state would be good news.
Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
First of all, the dangerous part of Hamas is 3% of its total budget, the other large portion of it’s funding goes to spreading Islamic charity to the Palestinian refugees. I’m not condoning the actions of Hamas, but it’s no worse than the early Jewish terrorist organizations that fought and died to get Britain out of the region (and protect Jewish refugees). The other Palestinian terrorist groups like Islamic Jihad and the Martyr’s Brigade are so small, it’s laughable.
Despite size and budget constraints, they kill a lot of people. And I’m not condoning Israeli terrorist acts either. It’s just the people in charge now are not terrorists. They’ve inherited a state they have to run, and that means dealing with terrorists.
You’re right, it was. But it didn’t give the Palestinians control of their own water, or viable connecting strips, nor did it address the people forever stuck in the pitiful Gaza strip. The post-Oslo offerings were meager, to say the least, and no Palestinian nationalist would have ever accepted them.
You think they’re ever going to get a better deal?
Why can’t Israel give back the entirety of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip like every UN resolution has asked them to do for the past 36 years?
First of all, the UN’s a joke and I won’t tolerate you trying to make points by using it, even a little. It’s a mockery of government and its policies condone sooooo many human rights violations that anyone who can bring himself to respect it needs to reexamine his feelings about Nazis.
It’s not theirs, they grabbed it illegally in a war of aggression, and they’ve been putting a strangle hold on the native people since 1948.
Second, does that mean the United States should give all of its territory back to the Native Americans and that the British should ship back out to Norway? Not to mention the Spanish turning themselves over to the Arabs… There’s really no such thing as illegally obtaining land (on a national scale) because international law doesn’t make any sense without an international government, which doesn’t exist. The only way Palestinians are going to get that land is by
A) continuing to kill people until they leave, in which case Israel is fully justified in making Palestinian life a living hell, or
B) putting down the guns and trying to talk sensibly. It may be the case that Sharon isn’t going to listen right away, but if the Palestinians make it clear that they have no intentions of fighting, that all they want is freedom, a whole lot of people will start to listen. It’s called civil disobedience and it works a surprising amount of the time.
Originally posted by LPFabulous
I bet a lot of people, especially a lot of pro-life-type Christians, would take issue at you saying that their brand of “Americanism,” which I’ll remind you is fairly dominant in the United States, doesn’t value humans.
And I take issue with their branding me un-American. I happen to enjoy America, and I want to make America better. That makes me un-American? Sure, Senator Uncle Joe, whatever you say.
First of all, the UN’s a joke and I won’t tolerate you trying to make points by using it, even a little. It’s a mockery of government and its policies condone sooooo many human rights violations that anyone who can bring himself to respect it needs to reexamine his feelings about Nazis.
Hm, I like the UN, therefore I’m a nazi. Makes sense.
OH WAIT