Dennis Prager: Nutty Conservative?

Originally posted by LPFabulous
I’m glad that they’re racist southerners rather than just racists… who’s being derogatory now?

Well I was trying to be more specific since not all racists hate black people. There’s plenty of racist black people who hate white or asian people, or whatever. I felt the term racist was too non-specific so I used a stereotype to make my point. Meh. So lemme rephrase. Racists who hate black people would disagree with you on that point.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Dude, it isn’t just because I disagree with them because I feel like it. It’s that I don’t see any good reason to think that people who believe some of these things are sane or rational.

Hahahaha, now that’s just plain closed minded. I disagree with these people so they must be insane. Well there’s also these guys that believe an invisible man in the sky watches them and knows everything they’re going to do before they do it. Talk about a bunch of loons!

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Way to argue for your contention… By the way, I still think you’re wrong. Being impartial/objective would require you not to be a person, not to have desires, emotions, reactions, or an environment. When you can somehow get outside of everything that makes you who you are, then you can talk to me about impartiality.

I was making an attempt at humor there, guess you missed it… Oh well, it wasn’t very good anyway, not that I have much competition. It is impossible to THINK in an impartial way since you already have your opinions formed in your mind, but it’s possible to SPEAK in an impartial way. You just need to try to cover both sides of an argument without intentionally making one side look better or worse than another. Maybe it’s impossible for you to do so, but it’s not impossible.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
When I say “just fine,” I don’t mean just surviving. My cousin and her new husband (neither college-educated) just bought a house. They have good jobs and enough money to be happy. If the cost of living is too high in California, then move.

What exactly do they do? Either way, please do not go implying that college is a waste of time, that’s just foolishness. Whether or not they went to college, I’m sure they had some sort of training for their jobs, or they started very low and slowly worked their way up. For 90% of the good paying jobs, you need a college education. And even for those other jobs that don’t require college, don’t pay as much as a good college education can get you. Also, if I could afford to move to a different state, I still wouldn’t. The cost of living in California may be higher than some other states, but it also has more opporunities for awesome jobs that pay very well than other states. I think I’ll tough it out untill my college schooling is over and then get one of them Awesome Jobs ™.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
First of all, no she didn’t. Nurses don’t go to med school - they go to nursing school. It’s different. Second, I wasn’t counting her as one of my parents because I don’t live with her. My mother and stepfather are not college-educated, and I have a house and cats and dogs and food and videogames and satellite TV and all those things a boy could want.

Yada yada yada, same difference. A medical training school of some sort, let’s not be critical of the details. And what if I want more than all the things a boy could want? What if I want two cars, some property with horses, and maybe a boat? Well I’m more likely to get those with a college education and a dregree in something that sounds impressive. If it comes down to an employer to hire one person out of two canidates with similar qualifications, 99% of the time they will chose the guy with the college degree over the high school grad.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Usually, they’re called “grants” and are based on the fact that you don’t have any money, which is the ludicrous part. Though they’re justifiable in the sense that I’m fully prepared to allow (morally) people to accept an amount up to the amount they (or their parents) pay in income taxes. They’re owed that much.

Actually, grants and scholarships are not quite the same thing. Grants are granted to you if you have low enough income or high enough expenses to meet certain criteria that the federal and state goverments set. A scholarship is a sum of money awarded for things like outstanding abailities (football scholarship) or outstanding academic achievements. There are also hundreds of private insttutions that give out scholarships for weird things like being a latino woman ages 22-31 who have lung cancer or something like that. I was getting a federal pel grant for a while, but it wasn’t much and didn’t help much for initial expenses since I didn’t get the first check untill 30-45 days after the semester starts. It certainly wouldn’t have paid for health insurance… And I’m glad that you will allow me to get these grants, that’s so nice of you.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Again, all of this looks like a choice and you still haven’t convinced me that the state needs to bail you out of a choice you made all by yourself.

Look, I had few other choices than go to college. Arround where I live at least there are two different types of employment. One type is the part time fast-food type places where they pay you minimum wage and then make you work the maximum amount possible without considering you full time. Full time workers in these situations get benifits packages, like health care and dental, while the riff raff part time get minimum wage and nothing else. The other type is the managerial full-time workers that get the benifits, but absolutely require at least an associates degree in business or something. Maybe if you have years of experience in the field they hire for for these high paying jobs, they might hire you, but of course you won’t get hired and gain the experience unless you have a college degree. There are few jobs arround here that will allow you to start at the bottom and be trained for the higher position as you go. The only thing remotely close like that is unpaid internships and those are not plentiful.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
The state has guns, which it uses to enforce its laws.

Yep, they do. They don’t however point them at doctors who don’t want to treat people when they government pays the bill. There is no law that says doctors can’t quit or work elsewhere. If doctors don’t want to treat somone for how their bills are paid, they get fired, no guns involved.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
I’m glad we can just state that federal regulation became necessary without really looking at the alternatives… which I’d like to do seeing as how federal regulation has so totally fucked the system up.

The system can be fucked up with and without government regulation. The key however is to controll it well so it doesn’t get fucked up in the first place. If the state government wasn’t so short sighted, it would have built more power plants for the increasing demand. The whole thing about not being able to build more power plants because of environmental concerns is a little rediculous. I guess that’s one thing that I disagree with “liberals” on. Environmentalists to be more specific, who don’t see that it’s a bad idea to rely too much on importing anything.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Given democracy, I agree… but I’m not sure why you feel the need to try to convince me of that.

I’m not trying to convince you of that, I was just mentioning it’s there as an option.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Actually, Republicans just don’t tend to take such a poor view of consumers as Democrats (I’m using these party designations sweepingly and unfairly) do. For the most part, the idea of Democratic regulation implicitly seems to involve the notion that consumers are either too stupid or too lazy to make reasonable choices on their own. In many cases, I’d even go so far as to say it’s moral - a lot of “liberals” don’t seem to think that people should be held responsible for their decisions - hence, abortion. I think (because this is my point of view) that Republicans tend to assume that consumers aren’t just a bunch of ninnies who need a benevolent dictator keeping them in line. The reason they tend to favor businesses (though what I think is more accurate is that they just oppose special privileges for consumers - similar to the way their opposition to things like affirmative action is entirely negative) is that they trust the market to make things okay, which it usually does.

It’s not that people are lazy or stupid that they get into situations where they can’t afford to take care of themselves. You have a strange notion of poor people. Most of the time poor people just have limited options on ways to improve their quality of living and get higher income. Options that seem easy decisions to those who make more money are often alot harder for the poor. They often have to make big sacrafices or take big risks that wouldn’t seem so risky or so big a sacrafice if only they had more to risk. Yes there are alternatives that could very well earn you better pay, but at what cost? Is it worth the risk? Say a poor person get a job offer, but he’d have to relocate to an entirely different state or country. What if he gets laid off after he moves? What if he doesn’t get paid enough? What would be the impact on his family? Sometimes the risks are just too much. Not everyone can do this sort of thing, even if they are poor and are left with the alternative of staying poor.

Originally posted by ChemBot
Hahahaha, now that’s just plain closed minded. I disagree with these people so they must be insane. Well there’s also these guys that believe an invisible man in the sky watches them and knows everything they’re going to do before they do it. Talk about a bunch of loons!

If it’s anything at all, it isn’t close-minded. I’ve reasoned out my decision that people who believe things despite the economic evidence to the contrary are insane. It’s not just that I disagree with them; it’s that reality disagrees with them. Also, I think people who believe in God are nuts too… However, that’s a matter of there being no evidence in His favor, as opposed to liberal ideas like socialized health care that have a lot of evidence specifically refuting their value.

I was making an attempt at humor there, guess you missed it… Oh well, it wasn’t very good anyway, not that I have much competition. It is impossible to THINK in an impartial way since you already have your opinions formed in your mind, but it’s possible to SPEAK in an impartial way. You just need to try to cover both sides of an argument without intentionally making one side look better or worse than another. Maybe it’s impossible for you to do so, but it’s not impossible.

First, I still think it’s impossible, ESPECIALLY in speech. And that’s precisely because what constitutes “impartiality” in speech is going to vary from person to person, and is largely a product of the culture. I guarantee you that what passes as impartial here is not at all the same as what passes for impartial in China or the Congo. For that matter, you and I probably have fairly different ideas about what makes certain speech impartial.

What exactly do they do? Either way, please do not go implying that college is a waste of time, that’s just foolishness. Whether or not they went to college, I’m sure they had some sort of training for their jobs, or they started very low and slowly worked their way up. For 90% of the good paying jobs, you need a college education. And even for those other jobs that don’t require college, don’t pay as much as a good college education can get you. Also, if I could afford to move to a different state, I still wouldn’t. The cost of living in California may be higher than some other states, but it also has more opporunities for awesome jobs that pay very well than other states. I think I’ll tough it out untill my college schooling is over and then get one of them Awesome Jobs ™.

I’m not saying that college is a waste of time. If it were, I wouldn’t be there. And I’m not saying that you don’t need it, for the most part, to get a high-paying job - though people who go to college specifically so they can get a good job disgust me. College is a place of education, not job training. That said, I’m just trying to combat your obvious implication that your choices are either to make minimum wage or go to college and be rich. There is a whole array of jobs in between. And your choice not to leave California is still a choice, and certainly one that I don’t think the state is responsible for supporting you in making.

Yada yada yada, same difference. A medical training school of some sort, let’s not be critical of the details. And what if I want more than all the things a boy could want? What if I want two cars, some property with horses, and maybe a boat? Well I’m more likely to get those with a college education and a dregree in something that sounds impressive. If it comes down to an employer to hire one person out of two canidates with similar qualifications, 99% of the time they will chose the guy with the college degree over the high school grad.

That’s true, though in many cases the high school grad can win specifically because he is willing to work for less money. College degrees demand higher paychecks and can be overlooked for that reason, though you’re right that they usually aren’t. And if you want horses and boats and all that other stuff, I sure as hell don’t think the state should have to finance your education. I can’t afford to buy Mars yet, so should the state have to fund my education just because I can’t get something I want?

Actually, grants and scholarships are not quite the same thing. Grants are granted to you if you have low enough income or high enough expenses to meet certain criteria that the federal and state goverments set. A scholarship is a sum of money awarded for things like outstanding abailities (football scholarship) or outstanding academic achievements. There are also hundreds of private insttutions that give out scholarships for weird things like being a latino woman ages 22-31 who have lung cancer or something like that. I was getting a federal pel grant for a while, but it wasn’t much and didn’t help much for initial expenses since I didn’t get the first check untill 30-45 days after the semester starts. It certainly wouldn’t have paid for health insurance…

Thank you. That was my point.

And I’m glad that you will allow me to get these grants, that’s so nice of you.

I specifically said “morally allow” just so I could defend myself from people making comments like this. I, unlike liberals (there I go using that word again), am not in the business of interfering with people’s lives because they have something I don’t.

Look, I had few other choices than go to college.

This is a lie.

Arround where I live at least there are two different types of employment. One type is the part time fast-food type places where they pay you minimum wage and then make you work the maximum amount possible without considering you full time. Full time workers in these situations get benifits packages, like health care and dental, while the riff raff part time get minimum wage and nothing else. The other type is the managerial full-time workers that get the benifits, but absolutely require at least an associates degree in business or something. Maybe if you have years of experience in the field they hire for for these high paying jobs, they might hire you, but of course you won’t get hired and gain the experience unless you have a college degree. There are few jobs arround here that will allow you to start at the bottom and be trained for the higher position as you go. The only thing remotely close like that is unpaid internships and those are not plentiful.

Then move to another area. There’s a choice. You may not want to do it, but it’s a choice. Just because you opt to live in a part of the world where those who are not college-educated are not economically competitive doesn’t mean you have no choice but to go to college.

Yep, they do. They don’t however point them at doctors who don’t want to treat people when they government pays the bill. There is no law that says doctors can’t quit or work elsewhere. If doctors don’t want to treat somone for how their bills are paid, they get fired, no guns involved.

The problem here, of course, is that when I made the analogy, I wasn’t talking about doctors. I was talking about taxes, which the government will extract at gunpoint if you choose not to pay them.

The system can be fucked up with and without government regulation.

True, but how do we know that this one would be?

The key however is to control it well so it doesn’t get fucked up in the first place.

Wrong. The key is to make sure it needs to be controlled in the first place. There you go being a crazy liberal again and just assuming that we need Janet Reno or whoever to lock everything down as soon we’re aware it exists.

If the state government wasn’t so short sighted, it would have built more power plants for the increasing demand. The whole thing about not being able to build more power plants because of environmental concerns is a little rediculous.

Oh, so now the state has to control everything AND be omniscient? Gee, wanting an all-powerful, all-knowing force to be left to make all the hard decisions is what it takes to be a liberal? Then I’m on board.

I guess that’s one thing that I disagree with “liberals” on. Environmentalists to be more specific, who don’t see that it’s a bad idea to rely too much on importing anything.

I don’t know what you’re saying here.

It’s not that people are lazy or stupid that they get into situations where they can’t afford to take care of themselves. You have a strange notion of poor people.

Because I think they’re capable of changing from poor to not poor? Yeah, I’m nuts.

Most of the time poor people just have limited options on ways to improve their quality of living and get higher income.

So does everyone. Growing wings and joining a carnival sideshow is not an option for me, so my options are limited. If you mean it’s more difficult for poor people, then I agree. But the same is true for stupid people, so where are we going here?

Options that seem easy decisions to those who make more money are often alot harder for the poor. They often have to make big sacrafices or take big risks that wouldn’t seem so risky or so big a sacrafice if only they had more to risk.

Oh no, someone somewhere has to sacrifice something to get what he wants. You mean I might not get to live in California AND have a horse? Christ, the world is falling apart.

Yes there are alternatives that could very well earn you better pay, but at what cost? Is it worth the risk?

That seems like an economic analysis that would have to be made by the person in question.

Say a poor person get a job offer, but he’d have to relocate to an entirely different state or country. What if he gets laid off after he moves? What if he doesn’t get paid enough? What would be the impact on his family? Sometimes the risks are just too much. Not everyone can do this sort of thing, even if they are poor and are left with the alternative of staying poor.

Your worry is that someone will get a job offer in a different country and then get laid off when he gets there? I’m sure this is a real problem. Also, on your “paid enough” question, isn’t being paid anything better than being paid nothing?

I was wrong. Dennis Prager is crazy.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20030520.shtml

I don’t know whom he offended more, women or men…

Originally posted by Oblivion
I don’t know whom he offended more, women or men…

Me. I guarantee I was offended more than everyone else.

I asked young women listeners to my radio show to call and tell me if, moral values aside, they could imagine themselves excited by a bunch of gorgeous men taking their clothes off and rubbing their bodies on them as female strippers do for men. Overwhelmingly they called (and wrote) to say that such images actually turned them off. The few who said they would like it, under questioning came to realize that they hardly like what men like.

Because, you know, his audience is probably 99% young, verile, supple, attractive women, so his informal poll is probably indicative of how the rest of the world is.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
Me. I guarantee I was offended more than everyone else.

Hey, no fair, you have disappointment for a +2 offended bonus because you liked the guy…

Another vote for batshit nutty.

Originally posted by Trot_to_Trotsky
[B]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20030527.shtml

Another vote for batshit nutty. [/B]

It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times!? You stupid monkey!

I would have laughed at your post, but your avatar creeped me out.

Hrmm, I hate to point out to Mr. Prager that Huxley did not really intend for the monkey example to be taken seriously. As for randomness, I must simply sigh when anyone tries to make the claim that evolutionists think the current state of the universe arose from pure randomness. The fact that anyone can take “natural selection” to mean “randomness” makes me ill.

sigh

Originally posted by LPFabulous
[B]Hrmm, I hate to point out to Mr. Prager that Huxley did not really intend for the monkey example to be taken seriously. As for randomness, I must simply sigh when anyone tries to make the claim that evolutionists think the current state of the universe arose from pure randomness. The fact that anyone can take “natural selection” to mean “randomness” makes me ill.

sigh [/B]

Actually, natural selection as currently described requires randomness. Natural selection would, under certain circumstances, certainly favor intelligence (and other characteristics of humans), but it would also act against many parts of the human body. I see this as a very strong argument against pure creationism: the human body is a blindingly stupid design. But I digress . . . .

So, why do humans have some features that are favorable and others that are not? The answer, and the place where randomness plays into evolution, is mutation. Because mutation is a random process, natural selection is dependent on a random process to proceed (in the absense of mutation there could be no meaningful evolution in the long run). So, natural selection and evolution are, in a sense, “random.” Again, not totally; evolution does not, of course, imply that anything can happen, but it also does not imply that all positive changes will eventually evolve. Thus the existence of intelligence (under this model) is random.

Of course, getting heads when you flip a coin is random. That doesn’t change the fact that you are, long run, pretty likely to get heads eventually. And even if you weren’t likely to get heads, you still could. So, for instance, the fact that it would, probability wise, take a lot of monkeys a long time to type a sonnet doesn’t discount the possibility that a single monkey could write one in one sitting. The fact that an event is unlikely doesn’t mean that it is impossible. This is Mr. Prager’s real mistake. Knowing, as I do, nothing about the genetic causes of intelligence, let us say that it is, on any given planet, very unlikely that intelligent life will evolve. That doesn’t change the fact that intelligent life did (if you buy evolution) evolve on Earth. So, the event is unlikely; all that this means is that the current state of the Earth is very unlikely in the abstract. Mr. Prager’s error is in concept; he seems to think that nothing that is unlikely ever happens.

I did not mean to indicate that natural selection doesn’t involve randomness. I’m pretty sure such a statement would only make sense if the driving force behind natural selection were divine. What I meant was that equating natural selection/evolutionary processes with randomness is foolish. It isn’t just a matter of unlikely things happening and probability being demonstrated in strange ways, but of there being controls on the randomness.

By controls I mean things that evolutionists call “fitness.” Certainly randomness plays a role in the arising of certain features, but the confluence of those features (i.e., human intelligence AND an opposable thumb) is not actually nearly as unlikely as it would be mathematically. This is precisely because they are both good survival features, so when one shows up, it stays around and we don’t have to start over. In others words, our monkeys are typing Shakespeare with some severely rigged typewriters.

Originally posted by LPFabulous
[B]I did not mean to indicate that natural selection doesn’t involve randomness. I’m pretty sure such a statement would only make sense if the driving force behind natural selection were divine. What I meant was that equating natural selection/evolutionary processes with randomness is foolish. It isn’t just a matter of unlikely things happening and probability being demonstrated in strange ways, but of there being controls on the randomness.

By controls I mean things that evolutionists call “fitness.” Certainly randomness plays a role in the arising of certain features, but the confluence of those features (i.e., human intelligence AND an opposable thumb) is not actually nearly as unlikely as it would be mathematically. This is precisely because they are both good survival features, so when one shows up, it stays around and we don’t have to start over. In others words, our monkeys are typing Shakespeare with some severely rigged typewriters. [/B]

Perhaps not as unlikely, but still pretty unlikely. I mean, again, I’m no expert, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say that the existance of life alone is a damn unlikely occurence. I would further guess that evolution beyond the single-cell stage is probably unlikely. Given the rough characteristics of a simian body, I would hazard that, while the incorporation of the traits you mention would be likely, it is still unlikely that these traits would ever occur through mutation (further, arriving at this simian body is probably pretty unlikely). I was unclear above: the process of natural selection is not random. Given a trait, it is possible to make reasonable guesses as to the response of a breeding population and the extent to which that trait will spread. Evolution, broady, can be viewed as far more random. Simple example: imagine that intelligence comes before opposable thumbs. Given the breeding patterns of humans, it is reasonable to guess that, under certain conditions, opposable thumbs would not be incorporated into the species. Thus, by an accident of mutation, humans do not recieve opposable thumbs. In fact, most recent evolution in humans has been negative, with harmful mutations being spread throughout the population. This is another important point about evolution as opposed to natural selection: evolution allows for negative, harmful changes in a species if such mutations arise and are not selected against. In this sense much of this recent human evolution has been almost completely random, based as it is on the maximum harm that a totally random mutation can cause without creating a strong breeding disadvantage (as I’m sure you all know, humans have to have some pretty messed up genetic material for their breeding chances to be seriously effected).

So yes, there are controls, but that doesn’t change the fact that the process of evolution as described is pretty random. As for those monkeys, I imagine that the “rigging” of the typewriters would be something like: the monkeys don’t have to produce the entire sonnet, just each line of the sonnet individually. As more lines are randomly created these lines are added to the existing lines. Note that this process, while increasing the likelyhood that the sonnet will be produced, still leaves the production of the sonnet, in a small amount of time with very few monkeys, very unlikely.

Of course, the important point is that regardless of how unlikely human life in its present form may be in theory, in fact human life does exist. The idea that I am the product of a highly unlikely cosmic accident doesn’t really keep me up at night.

This all sounds fine to me. I just wanted to make the point that evolution as a biological set of theories is far more than “Yeah, random things happened and then there was life.” People like Prager don’t seem to realize that there is a scientific and logical basis for theories of genetics, adaptation, and natural selection. That’s all I’m going for.

Oh, sorry. Agreed.